It's been a while since I have had a buyer on eBay where I wanted to make a post about it. The topic was about a CD I was selling.
I found this CD at a church rummage sale in with a load of other similar CDs. But I couldn't find any information about this one. That's usually a good sign as it's rare and worth flipping.
I knew it was legit because everything else in the collection was. The lack of a proper UPC meant to me that it was probably a Manufactured on Demand (MOD) release but I wasn't 100% certain about that at the time, as it looked rather real to me. I've seen dozens of real CDs without proper UPC codes as well, so that didn't phase me. I've had 100s from BGM for example that doesn't use them. And I've seen several dozen MOD DVDs over the years with no proper UPCs as well. No UPC doesn't mean it's a fake in my book.
So this Kevin buyer contacts me about it.
If I were you, I would check the back of the CDs in this set to make they're not CD-Rs. To my knowledge, there has never been a box set of Harold Farberman's Ives issued. I'm not sure about the LPs, but the CDs originally released by Vanguard Classics. Also, a red flag for me was the UPC on the back of the box set.
Please get back with me and let me know.
- John R.
That ticks me right off. "If I were you." You don't start a conversation like that. He's immediately getting right into my face and accusing/insinuating that I'm doing something wrong.
But me being me, I do take everyone seriously even if they are terribly rude, so I done some research again on it last night just to be sure of what I saw months ago. Basically I came up with the same exact findings and came to the same exact conclusion. That the companies listed on the CD matches up with online details and that they do make MOD CDs upon request. It's more likely to be a rare MOD than a bootleg. So I replied back with this:
I'm looking it over and I believe now it's a Manufactured on Demand (MOD) release.
https://www.discogs.com/release/9805358-Charles-Ives-Royal-Philharmonic-Orchestra-Farberman-Orchestral-Works
The CD found in this link is basically what I have and they are calling it a CDr. I couldn't find any website proof that eOne does MOD releases but I'm thinking that they had done so or else these wouldn't exist. eOne owns a ton of rights to stuff and the label does say Vanguard Classics in a black box. I think it's a real release rather than a bootleg copy.
I was testing it out just now and there is a recording flaw skip in the middle of track 3 disc two. There was an odd sounding blip on disc one at the end of the third track which tells me that it wasn't properly edited. And it was rather hissy during the quiet parts, but that is normal and expected for old music releases. I'm sure I could find more flaws if I was actually listening closely.
Basically the mastering (if any was actually done) isn't really all that good but I can tell it wasn't recorded from a record at least as I didn't hear pops and crackles. Honestly with rare stuff on MOD, you take what you can get, but they tend to be very disappointing as no real effort was put into them. In this case it's not really obvious that it's a MOD unless you examine it really closely and know what to look out for. I know what they look like on Warner Archives DVDs, but this CD is a new one on me.
Thanks!
He replied back:
You need to edit your listening of this box set. They're CD-Rs not CDs and you still have indicated in your listing that they're CDs. Also, your asking price of $90+ is outrageous. The set you own is worth maybe $8 and that's it. This is NOT a commercial release from Vanguard Classics. You don't have something rare at all. If you actually owned the original releases from Vanguard Classics in the CD issues from the label, then you would be owning something that was rare. What you have is a fake copy of a set that never existed.
Very rude. I mean, reverse the situation. How would he react if I'm the stranger saying to someone that something he's selling is fake and blah blah blah. He would surely tell me to go fuck myself, as honestly who wants to hear that crap from some stranger. It's very snide and totally arrogant if not backed up by any real facts.
If I felt bold enough to actually tell someone this shit about what they are selling, then I would at the very least provide substantial proof to back me up rather than to use weasel words which basically says "I am right because I am right, case closed." And I would be so hella polite about it, rather than almost attacking the guy over it.
So yeah, I was basically ticked off by this person's attitude and I had wanted him to go away as he wasn't worth my time. I said:
Thanks for being so rude about it.
The next afternoon I got this:
The problem is that you haven't acknowledged that you don't own anything rare. I'm telling you that you don't and it's a fact. I've been listening (and buying) classical music for 15 years and actually I've been buying CDs in general longer than that and I've seen A LOT of fake, non-commercial CDs throughout the years and the set you have in your possession most certainly is a fake. The fact that you haven't acknowledged this in your own listing tells me a lot about you as a seller. Do the right thing and be honest in your listings.
Anyway, do whatever you wish, but you're trying to pass off something as a legitimate release from the record label when the artwork, the discs themselves and the UPC tell a very different story and no perspective buyer would buy this set from you, because if they're a collector, then they will know immediately what they're getting simply by looking at your photos or just by having knowledge of what the record label has officially released and what it hasn't released.
Again being rude. I get this every couple of years. I sold a blanket, or whatever it actually was I have forgotten, about a year and a half ago and it was the same situation. She was insane before buying it saying weird stuff to me. She got it and insisted it was fake. There was no fucking way it was fake as it wasn't something someone would ever fake! She offered no proof other than it's her opinion. But she didn't want to return it either. Some buyers are just loony. I generally block instantly at the first signs of craziness as it's best to never engage and I should have done so with this Kevin.
Honestly at this point I just wanted to see how he would worm out of my really clear and strong evidence and some super politeness. I find it interesting to see how nasty and illogical others can be. So I basically done a social experiment on him and I wrote this back.
No disrespect to you. You are giving me conjecture while I done a bit of research on it to go along with my personal experiences.
I discovered that eOne owns Alliance Entertainment (films).
https://www.entertainmentone.com/press/entertainment-one-announces-agreement-to-acquire-alliance-films/
https://www.aent.com/selection/manufacture-on-demand
It says right there you can contact them about getting anything in their catalog made up in any quantity. There are several logos on the release as well. Passionato, eOne, Vanguard Classics. And copywrite info. And I see on Youtube that eOne does indeed have the license to the Ives releases.
As for UPC codes, here is a clip from Google.
"DO I NEED UPC CODES? If you simply need an internal system for tracking how much inventory you have on hand, then you don't need UPC codes. If you plan to sell exclusively direct-to-consumer (whether that's through Etsy or your own website, or at farmer's markets or crafts fairs), then you don't need UPC codes."
I've seen some MOD DVDs in the past without proper UPC codes but they are indeed official releases. It's not an automatic disqualifier based on my past experiences with media selling.
If you mean MODs are always CDrs/DVDrs, then that's semantics. I feel that you are questioning it's realness rather than it's pressing technique though.
Either way, I did indeed update the listing before getting this email as I never mean to deceive any one. I have explained the flaws I heard, that I feel it's a MOD release and so on. I feel that I've done enough to get people to make their own fair decisions before buying, but I won't call it something that I honestly don't feel is isn't.
If you rather I put in a disclaimer that a buyer has an opinion that this is a questionable release, I can do that as well, but I'll have to further state this it isn't one shared by myself and I'll be stating the reasons shown above as to why. I feel that's rather fair.
Thanks!
And what I said above is all true. All signs point to that it's an authentic MOD release. The trouble is, and I've seen this before, that some people don't consider MOD as real releases no matter what. I do. The person wrote some useless insulting conjecture crap back and didn't even bother to engage in my proof. Yeah, that's because you are dead wrong buddy!
Manufactured-on-demand recordings are always CD-Rs and that's a fact. I've never seen one that wasn't. You clearly don't know what you're talking about and it shows. I don't give a crap who owns the rights to these recordings. My point is you don't own anything authentic or real. What you have is a set that never existed as it was never officially released by Vanguard Classics, so therefore, making what you have virtually worthless. Sorry that you have a difficult time excepting the reality of your situation with this CD-R set.
Anyway, I have no interest in buying this set, but thought it was important for you to take note that what you have isn't special or unique, especially for that ridiculous price you're asking for it. You'll never sell it.
I feel he really needs to do his research before spouting off such amazingly silly crap. eOne holds the rights to these releases. Alliance makes MODs. Annnnd digging deeper just now, I found this:
https://www.finanznachrichten.de/nachrichten-2005-04/4685405-hirsch-international-corp-announces-agreement-in-principle-to-merge-with-sheridan-square-entertainment-inc-004.htm
"Sheridan Square Entertainment is a New York based music holding company managed by Redux Records, a company founded by Joe Bianco, and Anil Narang, founders of Alliance Entertainment; Joe Pretlow, formerly a partner at Bain Capital; and Kinderhook Capital Fund, a New York based private equity fund. Sheridan Square's holdings include Artemis Records, a leading independent recording label whose artists earned four 2005 Grammy nominations, Musicrama Distribution, Compendia Music Group, Vanguard Classics, Triloka Records, Tone-Cool Records, and Ropeadope Records."
His ever so precious "Vanguard Classics" is held by "Sheridan Square." "Sheridan Square" is related to "Alliance Entertainment." Alliance prints MOD media. Alliance is owned by "eOne." And I think the chain goes even deeper as someone else now owns eOne, but we are going by what counted during this CD's release of 2012 rather than 2022.
Basically these companies bought each other out so much that you need a flow chart to understand it all. But the point is that it's totally within the realm of possibility that everything is on the up and up on this release. And that it is most likely a MOD release. And it is an authentic and official one.
I know my proof isn't conclusive, but it's very plausible as there are so many right things on this release that a bootlegger wouldn't bother doing. Like how would he know to plop on at least 4 different trademark names which are all connected in some way? He wouldn't! Nor would he even bother! The names all match so well where it's more than likely an obviously real MOD release that was done under license and is 100% authentic, event though it was probably printed on a CDr.
His saying that all CDrs are all not real nor are they authentic, well that's bullshit. Look at Warner Archive MOD DVD releases. Yes, they are made on DVDrs, but they are all 100% licensed and legit releases. Yeah, it was at this point where I just didn't want to listen to the guy anymore. Sometimes you just have to let it go as it's obvious you won't get anywhere by any further contact. So I said:
Fair enough. And a good night to you.
If he says anything back (which I'll be amazed about as I said nothing to get him to say anything further to me), then I'll ignore him.
But yeah, I feel that he was trying to troll me or he has autism or has a mental issue, either way he's certainly not within his right mind and one really shouldn't pick on the ill and show them up like I've been doing.
He left lengthy bad feedback to other sellers showing the same foul attitude he shown to me, so it's obvious that this is just how he is. He got blocked as I don't want any chance of him ever buying anything of mine. Most sellers would avoid him if they saw what he leaves bad feedbacks over and the snide way he does them. Here are a few examples:
I bought an item from this seller on Nov. 9th and didn't receive the order until Nov. 19th. Seller gave me several excuses for the delay in the shipping, but only after I inquired about the whereabouts of my order. Horrible communication and note to seller: if you don't want to ship items in a timely manner, then you need to get off eBay. It's that simple. I'll never use this seller again and those who are considering using them, do understand that you won't receive your item on time.
I message this seller twice to no avail. They sent me a CD that was an unauthorized bogus copy of an album. There wasn't a UPC code or record label logo anywhere in the liner notes or back cover. In fact, there were Russian text on the back of the CD, so that was a huge red flag right there. If you buy from this seller and there's a problem, get ready to meet dead silence on their end. I'll never use this seller again after this experience.
Contacted the seller several times with an issue with an item, but refused to work with me. He wanted me to return the item, but it is quite a rare recording and I wanted to keep, but would’ve liked a little money refunded, but, apparently, this can’t be done even though I’ve had other eBay sellers do this for me without hesitation. This seller needs to learn to take responsibility for their own listings. If you have a problem with your order, buy beware! That’s all I’m going to say.
Also, I loved how he ignored my offer to post his opinion on my listing and then clarify my opinion and show proof how I came to that conclusion. I may indeed post it anyway as I want to make it very clear without question how I came to my conclusion. If the buyer feels otherwise about my logic or about MODs in general, then so be it, don't buy from me. I couldn't care less. But honestly I think my calling it a MOD in the listing should be enough for any idiot to avoid it if they have any issues with those things. This Kevin is just a sourpuss troll that wanted to prove he was better than me or some mind games crap.
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